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-DaGoN- View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 3:36pm
Oh, I was thinking to copy my post from the "SCIENCE" thread also here.
This post doesn't deal with the logic of god, but more with his personal use, on an emotional level.
Originally posted by -DaGoN-

I had a conversation with someone that was really interesting. For this topic.
 
Please, if you're not gonna read this carefully and open minded, don't read it at all.
 
See, last night I talked to someone over PSN voice chat for 2 hours. At one point, I don't quite remember how we got there, he was talking about when you are alone, it can also be in public but your still on your own, he sometimes has like a moment of clarity, when everything suddenly becomes clear. It's like you see yourself from above then, not visually but your emotions, your feelings and your problems. And with that the answers. For example he used to take drugs, some harder drugs. He had a very hard childhood, not the nicest parents. And people kept telling him how he has to stop taking those drugs, and it never had a use to him. But one time, when he took some pills again and was sitting alone, he realized, just like that, that he went too far, that he has to stop. He finally got there himself. And THAT, that is what I found at some point familiar, but mostly I found it extremely wise. He managed to deal with his problems, his horrible childhood HIMSELF. Before, he took the drugs to make the pain go away. At one point he told me, he thought about killing himself.
But to deal with those huge problems himself takes such unbelievable inner strength. I was amazed.
And then I realized, I had it in me all along but I realized then, it's the reason why I don't believe or want to believe in "GOD".
I want to be an indipendent human being.
I want to have that same inner strength.
And I want to know myself.
And this person, he brought a comparison, he said himself it may be too hard, in some countries ppl would kill him for that, but please don't take this too hard or personal, try to be open minded about this.
He said that believing in god is on an emotional level like taking drugs to make your pain go away. Instead of dealing with your own problems, you rather take some all knowing all powerful being that helps you, and of course it does, cause if you fully believe and accept god, TO YOU he exists. But you are not true to yourself. As a human, you are capable of dealing with your own problems, and I find it sad that some people need to rely so much on other things than to just try and deal with it yourself.
Another extrem comparison was suicide. But let's not talk about it.
 
Better see and know yourself, than have god see and know you.
 
I don't want to convince anbody on here, but I certainly hope this gets some ppl to think about my way of life, how some german atheist thinks about faith and about dealing with problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Heavenly_tRiNiTy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 4:17pm
yes good post, not a believer in mixing ur words lol. Anyway I would say that;
1) people devoid of any good/kind acts and intent on extremely immoral acts are by definition - evil! Hitler, Stalin and others thought nothing of genocide on an international level. I doubt whether it disturbed their psyche at all. 
2) To state that everyone has a choice is to assume every single one of us is in complete control of their actions. This is not accurate. SYZYGY's claim that it is possible to separate the person from their actions is true to an extent. But imo we differ for I believe everyone of us is responsible/accountable for their actions and are judged by the law (divine, natural, moral whatever). The stoning of the adultress/prostitute was to show Jewish law enforcers (scribes and pharisees) that they were not fit to cast judgement (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) not telling people they shouldn't judge. He pardoned her, and as you say, everyone no matter how bad deserves a chance (if they show true remorse and a willingness to change). However my rule is not to judge others -  period.
3) Not all christians behave "like Hitler at a Bar mitzvah" (great analogy when you look at the subjects). I don't condemn or feel the need to convert anyone. I merely wish to explain that, although for some it is highly illogical to believe in God, there are many good reasons too. 
I live good with my atheist friends, we sometimes argue about 'morality' etc but i have no desire to force my will on them - believe or not, that is the choice. And we are all free to choose (hopefully).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Fatal1st

i only read this thread when i'm bored, wherever possible i avoid replying because ignorance annoys me.
before i add my two-penneth to the mixing pot i should probably make my position clear. first of all, i don't believe in "god", but i do believe in the value of freedom. i may not like your opinions, i may disagree with your beliefs, but i would fight for your right to hold them.
you could call me an atheist, if you look at the common understanding of the term then that's probably the closest fit for me, but it fails to completely capture my views.
i'm not ignorant enough to assume i know all the answers. the only thing i can be quite certain on is that my limited knowledge will always be dwarfed by my stupidity. it requires a degree of intelligence to accept this though, and i dare to say it's an intelligence that most people lack.
secondly, in order to understand my stance, you have to recognise the total and absolute distinction i make between god and religion. i find the latter has a relationship to the former akin to a trashy celebrity magazine and the complete works of voltaire. religion quite honestly abhors me. i make no apologies for that. ever since i was old enough to think for myself i have fought to preserve my individuality and freedom. i am not a number. your code of principles is not necessarily mine. the only thing in this world that makes me an individual is my mind, my intelligence, my decisions. following someone else's interpretation of "god" is as dehumanising to me as a lobotomy. 
now i've covered religion, lets move on to "god". the god that most of you idolise seems like a vindictive, homophobic, sexist little pr1ck. i reject conventional "god" entirely. he can take his commandments and use them to go fu.ck himself up the a.ss. oh wait, thats a sin, apparently. 
of course there is an entity in the universe that created everything. whether that entity is sentient or simply a single rogue atom is beyond my comprehension. any more speculation beyond this point and we move into the territory of guesswork, and once we embark on guesswork then we see the birth of religion. 
i am not of course implying that we shouldn't try to seek answers to the fundamental questions of the universe. as an aspirational species we crave knowledge and understanding, but there needs to be a basis to this understanding. i cannot build a house on the sand and not expect it to be washed away. ultimately, this is how i see religion. 
maybe the fallible thing about religion is that humans created it, and all human's have motives, hidden agenda's, reasons behind every decision they make. call me a cynic but i'm not naive enough to think that religion was created to bring people closer to "god", that was simply a by-product of the need to produce social order. i have no doubt that religion was essential in shaping modern world, but with the advent of legal systems in the post-modern era i genuinely see it as obsolete and irrelevant.
i guess these are the basics of my position on the subject, if you're intelligent enough i have no doubt that you can pick my reasoning apart. please try, i like a good debate. 
------
oh, and i had to reply to a few things sizzle said here too.. it's not an attack on syzle, just his opinions, in fairness i could have quoted 3 or 4 people from this thread and made the exact same points. syz was just lucky enough to be the one to point out all the things i disagree with in one post ;)
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

good people sometimes do bad things! and then there's bad or EVIL people! that love to hate and destroy happyness and life itsself. hell awaits those people imo because there the EVIL SADISTIC scum of the earth! Misery allways follows them!
i don't think there are truely bad or evil people. there are people that make choices that lead to undesirable consequences, murderers, rapists etc, but to say that someone is "evil" implies that that element is at the core of their being. a serial killer could choose to stop killing, a paedophile could chose to express his sexuality in a different way. to say that someone is "evil" pigeon-hole's someone into conforming to their own stereotype. it is as if to say that "you killed once, so you will always be a killer, and nothing you can do will make amends for it. you will always be evil". 
true, nothing the individual can do will bring the person they killed back. but if you cannot change the past you can sure as hell re-define yourself in the future. like everyone here i have made mistakes and i have done things that i'm not proud of, but my mistakes don't tell me who i am, they tell me who i'm not. 
i will always give people a chance, regardless of how little they deserve it. i thought the basis of religion itself was centred around the idea that people can change, that there are principles to aspire to. yet for the most part, the christians on this site are like hitler at a bah mitzvah.
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

commiting a gay act is a gay act xD taking a life is ending a persons existence on earth! which has to be at the top of the list of sins imo. right under taking your own life. where you acually have a choice.
 
i could start an entirely new debate on the ethics of suicide. essentially if someone finds their life so unbearable that they don't want to live anymore, why shouldn't  they be allowed to end it? it's their body, it's their choice. of course suicide destroys lives and families, but we each have complete and total ownership of our own bodies. if we want to take that to the furthest level then we should have absolute freedom to end our lives too. but of course, that's my morality and not yours, but if i ended my life tonight i would not be a "sinner", i find the fact that someone would try to impose their morality upon me incredibly condescending.
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

gay marriage is not even marriage imo so who cares? if gay people want to make believe that there married by getting some fake priest to say some meaningless fake vows? don't let me stop them lol whatever gets em through there day? _- 
so "god" tells us that love is one of the greatest things in life that we should all aspire to. it's all well and good if that love is between a woman and a man and they want to share their love with the world by taking vows. but if that love is between a man and a man, they should burn forever in hell? i guess they shouldn't have taken "love thy fellow man" so literally... 


great post Lucy

its ok to have a difference of oppinion, like living gay and gay marriage. i think living gay is wrong, but ive never mistreated any gay person! and i think gay marriage is wrong and void, but i don't rant about it and protest against it!

ive got my own life to live and my own decisions to make! so i don't bother with issues that don't involve me! i voted in 08 for the first time ever. and i'll vote in November but voting is as far as my involvement will go! xD

on here its just questions and oppinions so no real harm done no matter what your view is.

oh wait, anyone want to know who the next President will be? Tim P. Governor if Minn.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ax412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 7:30pm
you guys all have interesting view points while of course I disagree with some I still respect them.
I've mostly only posted when somebody quoted scripture waaaay outta context.
God does not make people sick in this day and age -_-
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Post Options Post Options   Quote QwEsT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 9:04am
Originally posted by SP61gTSupra

Why do people pray to God when a family member is sick? Didn't God make them sick? That, I find funny. Side note, I'd rather be an accident that has culminated from trillions and trillions of years of accidents, than be a pet that's gonna get 'spanked' for 'pissin' on the floor. Actually, a better comparison would be, getting kicked in the face repeatedly for sneezing,...................but he loves you! :)
God has a reason 4 everything...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 9:23am
Originally posted by QwEsT

Originally posted by SP61gTSupra

Why do people pray to God when a family member is sick? Didn't God make them sick? That, I find funny. Side note, I'd rather be an accident that has culminated from trillions and trillions of years of accidents, than be a pet that's gonna get 'spanked' for 'pissin' on the floor. Actually, a better comparison would be, getting kicked in the face repeatedly for sneezing,...................but he loves you! :)
God has a reason 4 everything...
Uhm I really do hope that post was supposed to be a joke.
 
If not. How the fvck would you know ?? How dare you (all humans) claiming to know who or what created or or even more, how this deity thinks, acts, and WHY it does so ??
I'm really open for other thoughts, and if someone believes in god I respect it as long as this person doesn't try to put his faith onto me. But I can really not stand the point "God has a reason 4 everything" to justify horrible things in life.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 10:52am
Dagon alls your doing is using your phony ass iq and your don't push your religion on me BS to attack Christianity and some people's views! anyone can see that because its lame as hell! you really need to knok the petty sh1t off!

HOW DARE YOU? i mean who the hell do you think you are? lol who cares what YOU CAN'T STAND? if you settle down you just may learn something kid?

whats the difference between being a Christian and being Jewish?

Quantum physics only works in certain areas! why is this?

How did the Myans create a calendar more accurate then our current calendars so long ago?

what is Aqua having for dinner?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:04am
GOD wants whats best for all of us!

satan wants to decieve us and keep us miserable and away from GOD! i can kick satans ass though! so i don't worry about it xD
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:11am
Sizzle this is a discussion thread, if we JUST go on here and say "I have my opinion and you have yours" then this thread wouldn't exist of course one party wants to push his opinion on the other. But I'm just saying I could care less what you believe cause I myself am sure I am right, so are you so we're not gonna get anywhere. That's why Aqua's post was so great.
But to say god has a reason for everything to justify the suffering of so many innocent people is to me disrespectful.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:13am
"GOD wants whats best for all of us!"
How do you know ?
Why does he kill innocent people then ?
Why do people still have to suffer, while rapists can walk the earth happily ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ax412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:26am
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

GOD wants whats best for all of us!

satan wants to decieve us and keep us miserable and away from GOD! i can kick satans ass though! so i don't worry about it xD
lol yeah your jkin
because in a physical fight he would beat everybody with one arm.
however in a battle of words or in our case "Word" we would win
 
dagov go read the Bible God is not responsible for today's suffering.
its not even His will for that.
 
remember in christianity theres a devil man cmon now.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:44am
GOD kills innocent people? oh i see! you don't believe in GOD yet you still get to blame everything bad on GOD.

suffering at times is part of lifes experience. if your girl leaves you for another guy is that GODS doing? if you choose to be miserable about it instead of just moving on? is that GODS doing?

if you choose to quit your job? is that GODS doing? if you choose to stay poor and miserable? is that GODS doing?

we have choices until we die! sometimes evil things happen but thats not GODS doing! its satan and his minions!

did you forget about satan? you know? the angel that GOD threw in the pit for try'n to overthrow GOD in heavan?

the angel that is now so miserable that he has become misery itsself. satan is pure evil nothing more nothing less!

and he wants us all! and he wants us just as miserable as he is!

so if you need to blame someone? blame satan!

or since you say you don't believe in anything? maybe you shouldn't cast any blame at all? just chalk everything up as natural occurances. and coincencedence.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:55am
Originally posted by Blackfang

Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

GOD wants whats best for all of us! satan wants to decieve us and keep us miserable and away from GOD! i can kick satans ass though! so i don't worry about it xD
lol yeah your jkin
because in a physical fight he would beat everybody with one arm.
however in a battle of words or in our case "Word" we would win
 
dagov go read the Bible God is not responsible for today's suffering.
its not even His will for that.
 
remember in christianity theres a devil man cmon now.


naw i done kicked satans ass in life! he don't want none! trust me
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

GOD kills innocent people? oh i see! you don't believe in GOD yet you still get to blame everything bad on GOD. 
Boy do I hope that you're not serious with this. If you are, i will just stop posting cause it would make me sure you are plain stupid.

Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

suffering at times is part of lifes experience. if your girl leaves you for another guy is that GODS doing? if you choose to be miserable about it instead of just moving on? is that GODS doing?

if you choose to quit your job? is that GODS doing? if you choose to stay poor and miserable? is that GODS doing?

we have choices until we die! sometimes evil things happen but thats not GODS doing! its satan and his minions!

did you forget about satan? you know? the angel that GOD threw in the pit for try'n to overthrow GOD in heavan?

the angel that is now so miserable that he has become misery itsself. satan is pure evil nothing more nothing less!

and he wants us all! and he wants us just as miserable as he is!

so if you need to blame someone? blame satan!

or since you say you don't believe in anything? maybe you shouldn't cast any blame at all? just chalk everything up as natural occurances. and coincencedence.
I keep forgetting that you guys also made up something to excuse things that would have to be blamed on god. But is god not stronger ? If he's not, we would all end up in hell right ? Cause Satan is stronger. If god is stronger he would prevent things like cancer.
Why do you pray when someone beloved is sick if god cannot act in our present time ? Or if he can and he really loves us all, why doesn't he heal all the sick ?
Forget it. I'm done with this.
I rather show the inner strength to take care of my own problems than pray to my ceiling.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:32pm
it still doesn't give you the right to go after the person or there religion! i havn't attacked atiests for not believing in GOD! its there choice!

but you assume your right and you think religious people are all just ignorant. over a billion of us are ignorant and your right?

have you ever heard of bible scholars? they would be more able to point you to bible referances then me! i go by life experiences. not the bible.

i don't have a holy'r then thow attitude! ive made my mistakes 4 sure! ive been human but i just don't let my own mistakes turn me away from GOD! GOD can forsake me but i'll never blame or forsake GOD! because if im not the man he intended me to be its my fault not his!

i would imagine that if GOD created everything and he's been around for billions of years or longer? he's pretty wise by now.

a whole hell of a lot wiser then me or you will ever be! so i never question GOD!

i just live my life and realise im just one of billions of unique people on earth. and try to enjoy what life i have left. xD



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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:40pm
see there you go, plain stupid? then you give an example, why doesn't GOD heel the sick? i don't know where you took your iq test? but?

erm? our inner strength was also given to us by GOD so mock religion if you like?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

see there you go, plain stupid? then you give an example, why doesn't GOD heel the sick? i don't know where you took your iq test? but?

erm? our inner strength was also given to us by GOD so mock religion if you like?
Inner strength was also given to us by GOD, wow. If you argue like that, I'm gonna have to stop because AGAIN, you base your belief on your belief.
I took my test with a professional.
 
2 weeks ago, the child of my neighbours got hit by a car. Why ? Why did god not prevent that ? Because he works in mysterious ways ? -.-
Maybe it was a sad accident ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc

it still doesn't give you the right to go after the person or there religion! i havn't attacked atiests for not believing in GOD! its there choice!

but you assume your right and you think religious people are all just ignorant. over a billion of us are ignorant and your right?

have you ever heard of bible scholars? they would be more able to point you to bible referances then me! i go by life experiences. not the bible.

i don't have a holy'r then thow attitude! ive made my mistakes 4 sure! ive been human but i just don't let my own mistakes turn me away from GOD! GOD can forsake me but i'll never blame or forsake GOD! because if im not the man he intended me to be its my fault not his!

i would imagine that if GOD created everything and he's been around for billions of years or longer? he's pretty wise by now.

a whole hell of a lot wiser then me or you will ever be! so i never question GOD!

i just live my life and realise im just one of billions of unique people on earth. and try to enjoy what life i have left. xD



More and more people are turning atheits, even though they might be in church. Well that's the case here in Germany.
You're acting like I'm the only atheist.
And you even sai yourself you KNOW god is real, well I KNOW he's not. I KNOW !
WE BOTH KNOW !
You starting to see the problem ?
 
And don't say you don't care about atheists being atheist, why'd you create this and the other thread then ? You started this discussion didn't you ? If you didn't mind you would have already stopped posting !
It's natural.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 2:33pm
i got hit by a car when i was 12, and the driver of the car was drunk. a friend was trailing me on my bike. the car was speeding and hit us point blank with the center of his front bumper. and yet it just broke my left leg and my friend just got 1 bump on his head? the police estimated that the car was going 60 mph so i guess we were very lucky?

i don't view everything that happens on earth as a religious occurance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ASHYTEBUBLExD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 3:41pm
Ok anyone who does not believe in A first cause IE God is ignorant, Richard Dawkins; in his book, "The god delusion" he sais, there must be a first cause IE God. Steven Hakins sais there must be A first cause, whitch is an uncaused cause. Why? Ill try and be very simple but the reasons for a rational belief in a first cause are numerous and complicated, FIRSTLY you happen to stumble across a watch on the floor, you asume that some one has droped it, and that someone got it from a shop which got it from a factory which made it using a DESIGN, You stumble across a stone, you COULD assume its been there for all time. WHY? Because the watch has cogs and ****, and its complicated and every cog fits together perfectly, and its all works.

The world, Nature is the same, all animals automaticly develop an equalibrium with its environment, and the conditions on our planet are absolutly perfect for life, and the conditions of the universe, IE the strenght of the nucleur weak/ strong force and gravity and the mass of certian particals have to be EXACTLY THE WAY THEY ARE for life or any structure of mass to have formed, this suggest that like the watch the universe which is almost INFINATLY more complaicated and EXACT must also have a designer.
The only other way it could have been so perfect for any matter to have formed would be if the multiverse theory was correct, there are some problems with that theory though...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ASHYTEBUBLExD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 3:52pm
most people who believe in God Dagon dont have a clue what they are talking about, they assume he must controll everything, thats B llox. The first cause, DID JUST THAT, caused, everything that happend after the causing of the big bang was a consequence, not somthing controlled by the first cause...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TuNA FISh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:26pm
religion is primitive.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatal1st Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by TuNA FISh

religion is primitive.. 

quoted for truth
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Post Options Post Options   Quote -DaGoN- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by TuNA FISh

religion is primitive.. 
Agreed. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SIZZLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:54pm
athiests are all gay
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