Religion and Politics

In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know, that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,” and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn’t happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. –Carl Sagan

Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy So anyway if there is no God then there is no real reason for any of us to observe morality and laws made by men for men. As a consequence of our actions we either die now or get old and die. Life can't be sacred or precious or have no real purpose (we die and disappear never to be seen again right?). If this is how the universe is then  what is the point of evolution (a universal process that causes change in order for beings to adapt and survive)??  Why is it striving to improve us for if it all amounts to nothing?  Why should it be there to ensure beings survive or die if they are not 'the fittest'?  I keep asking this but Dagon doesn't get it so maybe someone else can provide an answer cos I sure can't!

In part because out own life is short, brutish and harsh, we empathize with other humans. Since our lives are made better by the good will and self interest of others, so too should we contribute to the betterment of our community. Regardless of whether you fear the measuring of your non-corporeal soul or are motivated by some abstract notion of empathy for your fellow human, the results, not the principle, are what matter. The betterment of the global economy in a sustainable manner and the propagation and expansion of human knowledge are a prudent goals, who's basis and consequences does not require supernatural judgement.

- As we discussed earlier, purpose is neither a prerequisite for function nor existence.
- In the long run, we are all dead. Either be a nihilist and waste the potential of life or better yourself and those around you through some internalized moral and ethical grounds, be them divine or derived by man.
- I don't understand what the first us of "it" means in your second post. Sry

2 Timothy 2:23

Originally posted by Fatal1st In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know, that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,” and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn’t happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. –Carl Sagan

Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy i was referring to both science and religion, more specifically christianity. Both science and religion has value. By valuing science I am not devaluing christianity because they are not contradictory imo. But atheists cannot, they're belief is somewhat blinkered or one directional.

What I mean is that christianity isn't the only religion - by the comparison, aren't you devalueing all religions other than your own?
well thats pretty much the whole point being an atheist:  you dont believe in God.
it doesnt have to mean they didnt try to understand or think a God of sorts couldn't possibly exist next to science (as long as you don't take some things too literal), they just don't believe one does exist
If I believe in unicorns and you don't, that doesnt have to mean you're not thinking broad enough

Christianity is not simply a collection of words bound in a book. The lessons taught by Jesus give you ideas on how to life righteously. As you may know, ideas are limited only by the mind of the individual, not necessarily limited by time. Christianity is expansive, it is some 600 years older than Islam making it the oldest global religion. Yet it has more worshippers than at any point in its history. Whats interesting is that many of the things that atheists triumph (and democracy holds dear) came directly from the influence of christianity. It was their willingness to seek reform and improve the circumstances of women, children and slaves. To treat people as equals, to value their lives, their friends and family. To have the freedom to choose and respect the right of others to do likewise. Of course don't take my word for it. Its there in a book, some 2,000 years old and its still influential.

So before the bible people ate babies while throwing rocks at eachother, then
humans are creative enough to think of a passable system like ours, they do not need divine intervention
the influence of religion, bringing a universally accepted set of morals sped things up, but im pretty confident that even without eventually we'd figure out killing ourselves doesn't bring anything
ill agree religion had a purpose in our development as humans, but its not the only possible source of everything good in this world

like everything else in life TX.. we still have a choice! and like ive said before. i personaly don't take every word in the bible to be 100% accurate.

i think im the only one that hasn't acually tried to make an arguement about religion. which is why Dagan keeps say'n im not adding anything with substance to the discussion or debate.

he just doesn't realise that: im intentionally not adding anything with substance to the discussion or debate.

hence his flustration and uncertainty as far as my intellect is concerned _-)

see i choose how i go about making a point! i also choose wether or not to make a point! but either way i don't bind myself period! not even with my religion!!!!!

i'll live my entire life the way i choose to live it because i have that choice even though im religious.

i don't believe were slaves to GOD or religion no more then where slaves to our own parents!

what GOD would create all the amazing things in life and then enslave us in within them?

especially when experience is essential in truly learning!

and besides i think that passage means don't argue just for the sake of arguement, and try to be nice where your own humanity will allow.

Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc I don't believe [we're] slaves to GOD or religion no more then where slaves to our own parents! what GOD would create all the amazing things in life and then enslave us in within them?

As an aside, the Bible condones slavery and finds beating morally permissible, as long as the slave survives a day or two. Wa?

Exodus 21:20-21
http://bible.cc/exodus/21-20.htm

Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy So anyway if there is no God then there is no real reason for any of us to observe morality and laws made by men for men. As a consequence of our actions we either die now or get old and die. Life can't be sacred or precious or have no real purpose (we die and disappear never to be seen again right?). If this is how the universe is then  what is the point of evolution (a universal process that causes change in order for beings to adapt and survive)??  Why is it striving to improve us for if it all amounts to nothing?  Why should it be there to ensure beings survive or die if they are not 'the fittest'?  I keep asking this but Dagon doesn't get it so maybe someone else can provide an answer cos I sure can't!

Well, I actually don't get it, but the thing I don't get is why without god there would be "no real reason for any of us to obvserve morality and laws". Does that inner voice telling you what's right and what's wrong HAVE to come from god ?

Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc “Those to whom GOD has imparted religion by intuition are very fortunate and justly convinced. But to those who do not have it, we can give it only by reasoning, waiting for GOD to give them spiritual insight” ... Blaise Pascal

haha, i just took a test today dealing with Pascal's Triangle and the Binomial Theorem. He died in the mid 1600's, during a time when humanity's grasp on earth and the universe was very weak. I'll trust his triangle for factoring, but not his opinion on religion.

Originally posted by summ3rblink Originally posted by Fatal1st In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know, that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,” and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn’t happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. –Carl Sagan   I'm not arguing with Carl but this caught my eye a couple of years ago. Something as fundamental as the Roman Catholic Church just recently buried the concept of limbo: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo   It was taught for centuries and then... it was changed.  I'm not even going to start here anything about Catholic parents who lost their child at birth and grieved it's destiny for the rest of their lives..   Things change, Kundun

Originally posted by HanFei Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy So anyway if there is no God then there is no real reason for any of us to observe morality and laws made by men for men. As a consequence of our actions we either die now or get old and die. Life can't be sacred or precious or have no real purpose (we die and disappear never to be seen again right?). If this is how the universe is then  what is the point of evolution (a universal process that causes change in order for beings to adapt and survive)??  Why is it striving to improve us for if it all amounts to nothing?  Why should it be there to ensure beings survive or die if they are not 'the fittest'?  I keep asking this but Dagon doesn't get it so maybe someone else can provide an answer cos I sure can't! In part because out own life is short, brutish and harsh, we empathize with other humans. Since our lives are made better by the good will and self interest of others, so too should we contribute to the betterment of our community. Regardless of whether you fear the measuring of your non-corporeal soul or are motivated by some abstract notion of empathy for your fellow human, the results, not the principle, are what matter. The betterment of the global economy in a sustainable manner and the propagation and expansion of human knowledge are a prudent goals, who's basis and consequences does not require supernatural judgement. - As we discussed earlier, purpose is neither a prerequisite for function nor existence. - In the long run, we are all dead. Either be a nihilist and waste the potential of life or better yourself and those around you through some internalized moral and ethical grounds, be them divine or derived by man. - I don't understand what the first us of "it" means in your second post. Sry

Originally posted by Blackfang Originally posted by HanFei Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc I don't believe [we're] slaves to GOD or religion no more then where slaves to our own parents! what GOD would create all the amazing things in life and then enslave us in within them? As an aside, the Bible condones slavery and finds beating morally permissible, as long as the slave survives a day or two. Wa? Exodus 21:20-21 http://bible.cc/exodus/21-20.htm you really need to stop using the old testament as grounds for your arguements. they stoned people for adultery back then. in christianity we would never do that. Whats your point? Galatians 3:28    the law has no place in christianity as for one no man can keep the whole law. so if you care you can read Romans 3:20   and sizzle thats a dangerous way to look at it 2nd Timothy 3:16

i don't see it as dangerous at all. im human and if GOD doesn't forgive us for living as humans were all already forsaken!

so what would be the point in being religious? i have forgivness so why would i think that GOD doesn't?

there's a difference between choosing to live life, and choosing to be a bad person.

Originally posted by chisox666 Originally posted by uc SYZYGY uc “Those to whom GOD has imparted religion by intuition are very fortunate and justly convinced. But to those who do not have it, we can give it only by reasoning, waiting for GOD to give them spiritual insight” ...Blaise Pascal haha, i just took a test today dealing with Pascal's Triangle and the Binomial Theorem. He died in the mid 1600's, during a time when humanity's grasp on earth and the universe was very weak. I'll trust his triangle for factoring, but not his opinion on religion.

yep he lived in the 1600's and he was absolutely right in that quote! and were not one bit smarter then they were back then! we may have some new technology but were no smarter then they were.